Digital Downloads vs mixes

GeneticJunk
kingston Pic

3018 Posts

Hardhouse/Psy/Techno

cant see that working personally, why would anyone buy a radio edit when u can buy the full track for the same price?
The focus needs to be on making poeple who dont mix, want to collect the music in its unmixed form.

6 months ago

2954 Posts

I don't think it will happen now days, like others have said with all the free mixes allover the net. The music is so much more accessible now than what it used to be. For eg. Soundcloud. On my iPhone I can flick on the app & listen to any track or mix I want on there in an instance. Why would the punters pay for a track they can easily listen to on there for free? It's sad but true.

6 months ago

GeneticJunk
kingston Pic

3018 Posts

Unintelligent Repetitive Bullshit

Hardhouse/Psy/Techno

In reply to
Yeh as said there are too many mixes everywhere the clubbers will just be grabbing them unfortunately.

That! also these mixes are nearly always much better than the ones various labels try to sell you (download only ones) idea

Post edited by owner 20/11/2011 22:15:47

6 months ago

3046 Posts

Hard House/NRG/Techno

I'd agree that radio edits are probably the best idea for listeners and the original for DJ's.

It's a fucking disgrace that people grumble at paying 1.49 for a tune these days.

I also think that DJ's hammering tracks out on mixes for months before a release will have an affect on sales.

Don't get me wrong I know it has always been the case that DJ's/producers get promo's early, which doesn't bother me personally, but I do think that in the digital day and age that we are in, hearing the same track on 10 mixes 2 months or more before it actually comes out must have an impact on your sales surely?

Do any labels operate a paying promo list? Maybe if everyone had the opportunity of getting tracks at the same time as others it may give them the incentive of paying for promo's in advance. Or if not a promo list maybe offer the tracks in advance for a higher price than normal initially before the official release date and then drop it back to the usual price?

I don't know if anything like that would work with Hard House etc lol just an idea laughing thumbsup

6 months ago

3046 Posts

Hard House/NRG/Techno

Although my idea won't help with listeners, just DJ's really, sorry laughing

6 months ago

6355 Posts

It was always going to come to this with digital thumbsdown

Vinyl was the only way unfortunatley

6 months ago

3367 Posts

In reply to
He's a topic

Things are pretty much fucked with digital downloads i suspect, its a smaller and smaller market for tracks as single downloads especially when the bigger target audience are the listeners rather than the djs.

Any ideas on how to change things and start aiming downloads at the listeners rather than DJ's?

Nope, soundcloud, podcasts and free mixes means the end of selling music to the listeners imo.

6 months ago

8564 Posts

like has been mentioned, radio edits of tunes or just have David Guetta remix your tune. laughing

6 months ago

Mark-E (GainRider)
13290 Posts

Burlington Underground

Hard2TekCore

Maybe release 10 tracks at a time and for each download have a dj friendly version with the full tracks for the djs and a mix for the listeners and charge a 5er.

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

Tunes have never been attainable really though for the non dj have they??

Only the likes of Extreme Euphoria etc did a non dj get to hear some upfrontage the same time as everyone else.

6 months ago

JamesNardi
4620 Posts

In reply to
He's a topic

Things are pretty much fucked with digital downloads i suspect, its a smaller and smaller market for tracks as single downloads especially when the bigger target audience are the listeners rather than the djs.

Any ideas on how to change things and start aiming downloads at the listeners rather than DJ's?

What do you mean they are fucked Juksey? Selling less units?

I've found not sending any promos out to be a help recently.. A new tune comes out that most people haven't heard before & as long as the tune is strong it sells well.

i think we need to accept the fact that commercial dj mixes are not really going to sell these days, the internet has opened it up too much now.

6 months ago

Ross Homson
rosshomson Pic

3042 Posts

In reply to
It was always going to come to this with digital thumbsdown

Vinyl was the only way unfortunatley

dont agree here. Non dj's in the past would have been less likely to buy tracks if they were only on vinyl. At least now with stuff being digi anyone is able to buy them for listening to at home.

6 months ago

Ross Homson
rosshomson Pic

3042 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
He's a topic

Things are pretty much fucked with digital downloads i suspect, its a smaller and smaller market for tracks as single downloads especially when the bigger target audience are the listeners rather than the djs.

Any ideas on how to change things and start aiming downloads at the listeners rather than DJ's?

What do you mean they are fucked Juksey? Selling less units?

I've found not sending any promos out to be a help recently.. A new tune comes out that most people haven't heard before & as long as the tune is strong it sells well.

i think we need to accept the fact that commercial dj mixes are not really going to sell these days, the internet has opened it up too much now.

Yea a lot of the producers just see it like having football stickers to trade now when they make a new track. I send my stuff out to maybe 2-3 people as I want my sets to stand out a bit and dont want my stuff going on every mix out there before its release.

6 months ago

JamesNardi
4620 Posts

Good point Ross.

Also in the vinyl days the only way to listen to the tracks was if you owned a set of decks...

Now all you need is a pc/laptop/ipod etc..

6 months ago

3046 Posts

Hard House/NRG/Techno

I agree with Ross there. Back in the day listeners would only buy mix compilations and cd's. I never knew any Hard House listener back then to buy vinyl, it just didn't happen.

So you'd think now with tunes being so cheap and digitally available that sales would be good...but they're obviously not.

6 months ago

Cilla Battersby
daveclarke Pic

21836 Posts

i agree with a lot thats been said on here. at the end of the day non dj's never bought vinyl except for pic disks etc. the swapping of tracks between labels, a la ross's football sticker comment is a good one two. why not just release a track as soon as it's made now, no promo etc and see how it goes.

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

In reply to
i agree with a lot thats been said on here. at the end of the day non dj's never bought vinyl except for pic disks etc. the swapping of tracks between labels, a la ross's football sticker comment is a good one two. why not just release a track as soon as it's made now, no promo etc and see how it goes.

That would be a good idea. Budding dj's must b put off by seeing not that well established dj's having the most upfrontage tunes about 6 months before everyone else, raping the shit out of them. When they have heard it on about 10 mixes and every week in the clubs i bet they/me included are sick to death of it, or bored of it by the time it gets released.

6 months ago

Graham House
graham19 Pic

3287 Posts

In reply to
i agree with a lot thats been said on here. at the end of the day non dj's never bought vinyl except for pic disks etc. the swapping of tracks between labels, a la ross's football sticker comment is a good one two. why not just release a track as soon as it's made now, no promo etc and see how it goes.

You cannot always do that though due to Release Schedules

6 months ago

JamesNardi
4620 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
i agree with a lot thats been said on here. at the end of the day non dj's never bought vinyl except for pic disks etc. the swapping of tracks between labels, a la ross's football sticker comment is a good one two. why not just release a track as soon as it's made now, no promo etc and see how it goes.

You cannot always do that though due to Release Schedules

That's down to labels to adapt to the current market then.

Digital downloads have more or less re written the rules. Anything goes now.

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

Some dj's might get anal over it because they dont get to play thier track out enough before it comes out. I can see that being a factor. Maybe a month, 2 at the most after its been made, whack it out!

6 months ago

Ross Homson
rosshomson Pic

3042 Posts

In reply to
Some dj's might get anal over it because they dont get to play thier track out enough before it comes out. I can see that being a factor. Maybe a month, 2 at the most after its been made, whack it out!

I can understand djs wanting to get some play time out of their tracks. The problem is that they give the track to all their mates/peers first and then dont want it to come out for a few months, in which time everyone is sick to death of hearing it

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
Some dj's might get anal over it because they dont get to play thier track out enough before it comes out. I can see that being a factor. Maybe a month, 2 at the most after its been made, whack it out!

I can understand djs wanting to get some play time out of their tracks. The problem is that they give the track to all their mates/peers first and then dont want it to come out for a few months, in which time everyone is sick to death of hearing it

Yea thats what i was getting at, been guilty of it myself in the past, dont get me wrong. But the fact still stands deffos thumbsup

IF i decide to make any more tunes il be sending out just samples of the tracks rather than full tracks that they can just use even if they decide they dont want it. And if they dont like it that way. TOUGH!

Post edited by owner 21/11/2011 13:08:29

6 months ago

owt that pisses my dad off

Craig Stuart
craigyboy Pic

4476 Posts

leeds

Karim has it nailed

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

He does but he had already built up a big following before he decided to become elusive with his tracks.

6 months ago

Graham House
graham19 Pic

3287 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
i agree with a lot thats been said on here. at the end of the day non dj's never bought vinyl except for pic disks etc. the swapping of tracks between labels, a la ross's football sticker comment is a good one two. why not just release a track as soon as it's made now, no promo etc and see how it goes.

You cannot always do that though due to Release Schedules

That's down to labels to adapt to the current market then.

Digital downloads have more or less re written the rules. Anything goes now.

Not really.It's all down to quality control as well.Yes you could be a label that releases a new track every week but is every one going to be as good as the last one - Doubtful.It certainly has re written the rules in terms of quality control - there are some absolutely shocking tracks out there at the moment.It sounds like a lot of engineers seem to only have about 3-4 kick samples to use because the majority of tracks with that god awful kick like karim uses in DFWM, is featured in far too many tracks for me.

Post edited by owner 11/21/2011 4:24:31 PM

6 months ago

Cilla Battersby
daveclarke Pic

21836 Posts

theres always been shit tracks, you just notice them more due to the likes of over promotion on facebook etc.

6 months ago

Hi Freak1c
hifreak1c Pic

2229 Posts

The Town of unknown! SW

Some Horrible Noises

This is a very interesting topic and everyones views seem to be right tbh.

With Digital Cohesion we keep the promo super short abit like what James Nardi has said not sending it out to every Tom Dick And Harry before hand has really helped with our sells. I also feel that listeners should get some kind of edit of the tracks and thinking of doing it for Digital Cohesion doing a Listeners edit and DJ friendly mix (full tune), Its a hard one really, but something needs to be done me thinks and sure I'm not the only person who thinks this too. thumbsup

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

A non dj simply will not buy a track, whether its listener friendly or not. They are just bothered about hearing good tunes in clubs and having a good time.

6 months ago

Ross Homson
rosshomson Pic

3042 Posts

In reply to
A non dj simply will not buy a track, whether its listener friendly or not. They are just bothered about hearing good tunes in clubs and having a good time.

I know quite a few non dj folk who buy tracks.

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

Hard House?

6 months ago

Ross Homson
rosshomson Pic

3042 Posts

In reply to
Hard House?

yes

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

Hard House With a Groove & a Chuckle

Who?

6 months ago

3342 Posts

Me

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

Unintelligent Repetitive Bullshit

haha i think im in that bracket too then.

6 months ago

6355 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
It was always going to come to this with digital thumbsdown

Vinyl was the only way unfortunatley

dont agree here. Non dj's in the past would have been less likely to buy tracks if they were only on vinyl. At least now with stuff being digi anyone is able to buy them for listening to at home.

I knew plenty of people who were not DJ's that bought vinyl back in the day. Some would buy approximately 8-10 records a month and play them on their turntable/hi fi system but they had no intention of being a DJ or buying a set up. I used to work in a record shop and saw it quite a lot actually Ross

6 months ago

4900 Posts

"digital downloads have fucked everything"

such a retarded comment

6 months ago

jimmygooders
jimmygooders Pic

393 Posts

Skipton/Derby

Hard House, Techno

I agree with what ross has said with it resembling like collecting the football stickers. There is times ive heard a tune loads of times on a number different mixes before its release, then when it finally sees a release, i cant be bothered with it no more as im sick to death of hearing it!

i wouldnt say digital downloads have fucked everything, id say its just changed the way we consume music, and id say as a whole, we have got tighter with spending cash, whether thats down to the recession or just a change in trend n how we buy music... i was actually having a similar conversation with someone at work yesterday, and its crazy to think that when i used to buy vinyl, id be willing to pay up to £30 for 1 vinyl, now i barely spend that a month on a number of tunes. (probably more down to that i cant afford to lol)

i reckon the dj edits could maybe work, maybe put the edits at a slightly lower price than the full track?

6 months ago

4D Meow

1463 Posts

I am licking my chops for the day people like Bonzai, Hooj, etc start releasing their back catalogues in one big discography purchase.

It's madness they aren't doing this yet, especially the old vinyl labels which are 100% no making any cash right now from long deleted presses.

Start making money off old tracks before music devalues to a point that selling an mp3 is going to be like selling your business card to people.

6 months ago

Cilla Battersby
daveclarke Pic

21836 Posts

will never happen as they probably don't own the rights anymore

6 months ago

Pearsall
1261 Posts

SW15

full spectrum

In reply to

In reply to
dont agree here. Non dj's in the past would have been less likely to buy tracks if they were only on vinyl. At least now with stuff being digi anyone is able to buy them for listening to at home.

I knew plenty of people who were not DJ's that bought vinyl back in the day. Some would buy approximately 8-10 records a month and play them on their turntable/hi fi system but they had no intention of being a DJ or buying a set up. I used to work in a record shop and saw it quite a lot actually Ross

Yeah there were a lot of non-dj's buying vinyl back in the day, because that was the only way to get the tunes. Labels used to be able to shift a lot of records - hardcore labels in the early 90's would do like 50,000 sales on vinyl only tracks.

6 months ago

Hard stomping boshing twisted grooves

Andy Graves
Viciousandy Pic

4574 Posts

Reading

In reply to

In reply to
It was always going to come to this with digital thumbsdown

Vinyl was the only way unfortunatley

dont agree here. Non dj's in the past would have been less likely to buy tracks if they were only on vinyl. At least now with stuff being digi anyone is able to buy them for listening to at home.

When did non-DJ's EVER buy hard dance singles?

6 months ago

Hard stomping boshing twisted grooves

Andy Graves
Viciousandy Pic

4574 Posts

Reading

In reply to

In reply to
i agree with a lot thats been said on here. at the end of the day non dj's never bought vinyl except for pic disks etc. the swapping of tracks between labels, a la ross's football sticker comment is a good one two. why not just release a track as soon as it's made now, no promo etc and see how it goes.

You cannot always do that though due to Release Schedules

That's down to labels to adapt to the current market then.

Digital downloads have more or less re written the rules. Anything goes now.

Not really.It's all down to quality control as well.Yes you could be a label that releases a new track every week but is every one going to be as good as the last one - Doubtful.It certainly has re written the rules in terms of quality control - there are some absolutely shocking tracks out there at the moment.It sounds like a lot of engineers seem to only have about 3-4 kick samples to use because the majority of tracks with that god awful kick like karim uses in DFWM, is featured in far too many tracks for me.

The answer. Make your own fucking music instead of paying someone else to do it for you idea

6 months ago

Hard stomping boshing twisted grooves

Andy Graves
Viciousandy Pic

4574 Posts

Reading

In reply to

In reply to
dont agree here. Non dj's in the past would have been less likely to buy tracks if they were only on vinyl. At least now with stuff being digi anyone is able to buy them for listening to at home.

I knew plenty of people who were not DJ's that bought vinyl back in the day. Some would buy approximately 8-10 records a month and play them on their turntable/hi fi system but they had no intention of being a DJ or buying a set up. I used to work in a record shop and saw it quite a lot actually Ross

Yeah there were a lot of non-dj's buying vinyl back in the day, because that was the only way to get the tunes. Labels used to be able to shift a lot of records - hardcore labels in the early 90's would do like 50,000 sales on vinyl only tracks.

That was when dance music was considered 'cool'. It's not anymore thumbsdown

6 months ago

Lux

3017 Posts

Brighton

Acidspunk

In reply to

In reply to
It was always going to come to this with digital thumbsdown

Vinyl was the only way unfortunatley

dont agree here. Non dj's in the past would have been less likely to buy tracks if they were only on vinyl. At least now with stuff being digi anyone is able to buy them for listening to at home.

I knew plenty of people who were not DJ's that bought vinyl back in the day. Some would buy approximately 8-10 records a month and play them on their turntable/hi fi system but they had no intention of being a DJ or buying a set up. I used to work in a record shop and saw it quite a lot actually Ross

Completely agree thumbsup I'm one of those people (still buy vinyl) but have dex at home, just a shit DJ laughing thing is vinyl brought the collector gene out in people.

Times have changed and digi is now the format people use most. However, digi has not killed sales. What has killed sales is free downloads in whatever format and piracy. Even if vinyl (or CD to an extent) was pirated, you still had to pay for it. Whereas, with digi you can just get it free and that being the case , why pay if you're an unscruplous user?

This is a problem not limited to HH etc - even the high street shops are clinging onto sales for dear life, reinvesting in gig halls (HMV), only online (Zavvi), concentrating on merch etc.

Perhaps, sadly, the time has come where the creation of brilliant music is not justly rewarded by direct sales. Perhaps it needs to be partnered with merch or tickets or *insert global solution everyone's looking for here*.

6 months ago

Graham House
graham19 Pic

3287 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
i agree with a lot thats been said on here. at the end of the day non dj's never bought vinyl except for pic disks etc. the swapping of tracks between labels, a la ross's football sticker comment is a good one two. why not just release a track as soon as it's made now, no promo etc and see how it goes.

You cannot always do that though due to Release Schedules

That's down to labels to adapt to the current market then.

Digital downloads have more or less re written the rules. Anything goes now.

Not really.It's all down to quality control as well.Yes you could be a label that releases a new track every week but is every one going to be as good as the last one - Doubtful.It certainly has re written the rules in terms of quality control - there are some absolutely shocking tracks out there at the moment.It sounds like a lot of engineers seem to only have about 3-4 kick samples to use because the majority of tracks with that god awful kick like karim uses in DFWM, is featured in far too many tracks for me.

The answer. Make your own fucking music instead of paying someone else to do it for you idea

That is not really the best answer though.Perhaps the most practical answer would be to just choose a different kick and actually have a bit more input into said track when it is being made.

6 months ago

780 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
He's a topic

Things are pretty much fucked with digital downloads i suspect, its a smaller and smaller market for tracks as single downloads especially when the bigger target audience are the listeners rather than the djs.

Any ideas on how to change things and start aiming downloads at the listeners rather than DJ's?

What do you mean they are fucked Juksey? Selling less units?

I've found not sending any promos out to be a help recently.. A new tune comes out that most people haven't heard before & as long as the tune is strong it sells well.

i think we need to accept the fact that commercial dj mixes are not really going to sell these days, the internet has opened it up too much now.

Yea a lot of the producers just see it like having football stickers to trade now when they make a new track. I send my stuff out to maybe 2-3 people as I want my sets to stand out a bit and dont want my stuff going on every mix out there before its release.

Sadly yes, irritates me when people come on facebook etc, asking can i send them something, then follow it up with, ill send you something in return!

So now im the same and send my stuff to only a very small bunch of people, and i dont send out any stuff i sign from anyone else.

6 months ago

1281 Posts

You need to find away to recreate the joy of having a collection, dunno about you lot, but labels I knew and trusted, I often wouldn't need to listen to the tune properly, granted this brings in the debate of quality control that you had with vinyl due to costs, but I often bought the new vicious circle for example just because I had every vicious...

i did start off buying vinyl long before I could mix, but guess I knew I'd learn one day, it was pretty much the only way to hear the tunes I'd heard that weekend at home back then though... buying vinyl and building my collection was like a hobby in its self, away from the actual mixing as a hobby, and you just don't get that feeling any more.

Read that back, and not sure it makes sense... hopefully you'll get the jist of what I meant biggrin

6 months ago

Gaz Gibson
gazgibson Pic

7794 Posts

LOL!

6 months ago

780 Posts

Makes sense mate, i used to order every vc release without even listening, and Short circuit and dip for that matter, simply because i knew id like them!

6 months ago

1281 Posts

need to get that sort of collecting mentality back, but not sure it's possible with digital

6 months ago

Gopal
1936 Posts

That's what was awesome about this site when it was a record store, you could pre order tunes from your favourite artists or labels without even listening to them. Used to be like Xmas morning every time a package of vinyl turned up in the post smile

6 months ago

GeneticJunk
kingston Pic

3018 Posts

Hardhouse/Psy/Techno

In reply to

You need to find away to recreate the joy of having a collection, dunno about you lot, but labels I knew and trusted, I often wouldn't need to listen to the tune properly, granted this brings in the debate of quality control that you had with vinyl due to costs, but I often bought the new vicious circle for example just because I had every vicious...

i did start off buying vinyl long before I could mix, but guess I knew I'd learn one day, it was pretty much the only way to hear the tunes I'd heard that weekend at home back then though... buying vinyl and building my collection was like a hobby in its self, away from the actual mixing as a hobby, and you just don't get that feeling any more.

Read that back, and not sure it makes sense... hopefully you'll get the jist of what I meant biggrin

Very good point mate, hard house labels (if u can even call them labels anymore) have completely lost any kind of musical identity apart from maybe toolbox, labels no longer have their own sound, this has been lost over the years.

6 months ago

3367 Posts

I disagree - fireball has a particular sound, devotion dance does, twist etc

Its about quality and a product that the consumer wants and is willing to pay for, I used love collecting vinyl and especially having test pressings etc, even if it meant paying more for it.

Post edited by owner 23/11/2011 00:15:26

6 months ago

4900 Posts

vinyl is making a comeback tbh, there are vinyl only labels popping up all over the place and the pressings are selling out very fast.. non djs still collect vinyl, more and more djs have started buying vinyl again even if they don't play it...

I spend more on vinyl a week then i do on digital music these days.. ($100/$150 a week on vinyl, $50/60 a week on digital)

one of the record stores here in Auckland is doing CRAZY business, like better than they've done in last 5 years, they've bought that record store mentality back into it, they run a cafe in the front as well, it's more of a congregation place then anything.

I think with hardhouse, even if it was still all vinyl, you'd still see the sales have slipped, it's just not a hugely popular genre any more these days, and doesn't have the numbers to support sales.. regardless of the quality of them music, it's become a super niche genre.

One of the tactics a lot of vinyl only labels seem to be using within the realms of what i buy, is employing some good marketing tactics, you need to MAKE people want the releases.

Unknown pressings, hand stamped, limited etc... there are tons of labels i buy that dont list the artist, or list it as unknown or whatever, it adds an element of exclsivity to the release and MAKES people want the release...

I dunno... if you did like "Vicious Circle Limited" 's or something... no info about it, just like

A Unknown - VCL001A

B Unknown - VCL001B

stuff like that, pressed in low numbers so it sells out or something.

6 months ago

3367 Posts

In reply to

one of the record stores here in Auckland is doing CRAZY business, like better than they've done in last 5 years, they've bought that record store mentality back into it, they run a cafe in the front as well, it's more of a congregation place then anything.

That sounds epic, if there was somewhere like that here in brisbane (dunno if there is?!?) I'd make it my second home thumbsup

Record shops and pirate radio stations are where nights and labels always came from too (imo) - the lack of them makes it so much harder to get the word about nights and labels to the right people, yes facebook and etc make it easier to reach more people, but how many of them actually give a shit. I don't ever check my facebook events thingy anymore cos its so overloaded with shit.

Was going to make a comment about promo groups etc but remembered its already been said in the thread - karim has it nailed.

6 months ago

4900 Posts

Mates of mine in Berlin say the same thing about record stores there, they are hang out places and still do really well.

6 months ago

Gareth Cheeseman
Johngeary Pic

18356 Posts

Derby

Hard House / NRG

Post edited by owner 24/11/2011 08:41:13

6 months ago

Equinox

15497 Posts

The core issue, right across the spectrum, is turning around this mentality of not paying for it. The means to duplicate and re-distribute was all it took. Commercially it has had dire effects. All the marketing angles thrown at it won't stop it, educating maybe but, unless it is reduced significantly sustainable growth in sales will be marginal. Buyers don't vanish over night but, evidently they did so it's not hard to see why.

Having run a record shop, non djs definitely bought records, which brings me on to my next point. Vinyl sales, or a physical product like any has a percentage that are paid for but are not actually sold in reality. All accountable for the label which is a good thing. For example a label initially presses 2,000 units, a hundred to the label and promo mail outs, the rest are at the distribution. Most stores will be left with unsold stock, it's inevitable but, the label has been paid for their purchase via the distribution. Couple that with most shops took small numbers of random titles for passing trade and the shops that aren't specialist trying out different genres in the store. All those extra ghost sales have been lost which although small add up and it's never mentioned.

Vinyl worked because there was no option to duplicate and if you did there was nothing to mix it on, or the technology was late to become mainstream with dance music djs. Even CD turntables were late by about 15 years. CDs are being fazed out over the coming year.

As someone said, record shops were integral. It gave a hub for people to be part of, almost in some ways a tribe mentality when you hear people talk about where they bought their records as a regular. In a casual sense shops were places to hang out at, buy tickets, collect flyers, buy merchandising, the meet up place before going out etc. A place where you could randomly be talking to a producer or promoter and be introduced. Certainly where opportunities could arise from.

Also people have less patience when it comes to waiting for things, everything has to be immediate.

Blah blah blah laughing

Post edited by owner 11/24/2011 10:38:42 AM

5 months ago

It would've helped if the high street music stores and actually kept selling music for a start. I've always believed the key reason why legit MP3s failed to save the industry is because it was never expanded beyond the internet.

I cannot for the life of me think why the big chains like HMV never thought about introducing coin-op download terminals in their stores. It can't have been expensive to do surely - it would just be the music equivalent of those shitty "burn your own DVD" vendors you see in bus stations, you could have charged £2 per tune and had a full release onto a CDR with artwork printed on it to make it more collectable. I'm sure even Trackitdown could've done a similar thing through record shops.

The set up of the MP3 market was ill thought out and a catastrophe from the start, because the people who used to buy the most music can't even buy any music online at all. No one's done anything about it for so long that people don't even see anything wrong with not paying for music.

Before MP3s took off, about 75% of of music singles were bought by under 18s, but when Trackitdown / iTunes launched most banks only gave debit card accounts to over 18s, and therefore had no way of using the legit MP3 sites. The dance world rightly embraced the digital age but then the specialist shops did the same and went totally online, so even vinyl / CD releases had to be bought and paid for in the same way as MP3s. Since about 2006 / 2007, any young people interested in hearing / collecting anything specialist have to either use illegal filesharing sites or just find something else. It's no wonder not as many young people are getting into it frown

The only other thing that would probably help is if one of the label owners invested a few grand into a massive PR campaign for their label, but since most DJs / producers dance music earn the same average wage as the punters than I can't see that happening

Post edited by owner 12/27/2011 2:45:28 AM

5 months ago

Also I don't think it helps when producers give out free tracks for public download, especially big producers or tracks that are clearly worthy of being signed to a label. I know music doesn't make money and that producers aren't arsed sometimes but seeing 220 downloads on a track that 200 would never pay for devalues their work IMO. I'd be happier knowing that 22 thought it was good enough to play for smile

5 months ago

Graham House
graham19 Pic

3287 Posts

In reply to
It would've helped if the high street music stores and actually kept selling music for a start. I've always believed the key reason why legit MP3s failed to save the industry is because it was never expanded beyond the internet.

I cannot for the life of me think why the big chains like HMV never thought about introducing coin-op download terminals in their stores. It can't have been expensive to do surely - it would just be the music equivalent of those shitty "burn your own DVD" vendors you see in bus stations, you could have charged £2 per tune and had a full release onto a CDR with artwork printed on it to make it more collectable. I'm sure even Trackitdown could've done a similar thing through record shops.

The set up of the MP3 market was ill thought out and a catastrophe from the start, because the people who used to buy the most music can't even buy any music online at all. No one's done anything about it for so long that people don't even see anything wrong with not paying for music.

Before MP3s took off, about 75% of of music singles were bought by under 18s, but when Trackitdown / iTunes launched most banks only gave debit card accounts to over 18s, and therefore had no way of using the legit MP3 sites. The dance world rightly embraced the digital age but then the specialist shops did the same and went totally online, so even vinyl / CD releases had to be bought and paid for in the same way as MP3s. Since about 2006 / 2007, any young people interested in hearing / collecting anything specialist have to either use illegal filesharing sites or just find something else. It's no wonder not as many young people are getting into it frown

The only other thing that would probably help is if one of the label owners invested a few grand into a massive PR campaign for their label, but since most DJs / producers dance music earn the same average wage as the punters than I can't see that happening

That sounds like a wicked plan mate.I wonder why they never thought to do it

5 months ago

Graham House
graham19 Pic

3287 Posts

In reply to
Also I don't think it helps when producers give out free tracks for public download, especially big producers or tracks that are clearly worthy of being signed to a label. I know music doesn't make money and that producers aren't arsed sometimes but seeing 220 downloads on a track that 200 would never pay for devalues their work IMO. I'd be happier knowing that 22 thought it was good enough to play for smile

That is so true.It's even worse now though with digital because loads of producers are giving away tracks that are under par and certainly would not of been signed for release on vinyl in years past.So that also has a effect on the scene because there are loads of under produced tracks out there

5 months ago

Matt Capitani
mattcapitani Pic

4732 Posts

Midlands

Ska mania

In reply to

In reply to
Also I don't think it helps when producers give out free tracks for public download, especially big producers or tracks that are clearly worthy of being signed to a label. I know music doesn't make money and that producers aren't arsed sometimes but seeing 220 downloads on a track that 200 would never pay for devalues their work IMO. I'd be happier knowing that 22 thought it was good enough to play for smile

That is so true.It's even worse now though with digital because loads of producers are giving away tracks that are under par and certainly would not of been signed for release on vinyl in years past.So that also has a effect on the scene because there are loads of under produced tracks out there

Does this mean you wont be producing anymore graham woodtop? laughing

5 months ago

Cilla Battersby
daveclarke Pic

21836 Posts

if someone could integrate toolbox digital to this site im sure you would see more sales, especially if you could add it on the side as most of us do spend all our time on here. rather than look into two different websites.

5 months ago

In reply to

In reply to
It would've helped if the high street music stores and actually kept selling music for a start. I've always believed the key reason why legit MP3s failed to save the industry is because it was never expanded beyond the internet.

I cannot for the life of me think why the big chains like HMV never thought about introducing coin-op download terminals in their stores. It can't have been expensive to do surely - it would just be the music equivalent of those shitty "burn your own DVD" vendors you see in bus stations, you could have charged £2 per tune and had a full release onto a CDR with artwork printed on it to make it more collectable. I'm sure even Trackitdown could've done a similar thing through record shops.

That sounds like a wicked plan mate.I wonder why they never thought to do it

I thought of that about 5 years ago when commercial singles started getting download only releases, by then HMV already had an MP3 store so I really thought that it would be something record shops would do when most of their sales base weren't able to buy stuff anymore. Someone must surely have thought of it so I guess they just didn't want the expense and extra work. It can't have been that expensive to do though?

5 months ago

Graham House
graham19 Pic

3287 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
Also I don't think it helps when producers give out free tracks for public download, especially big producers or tracks that are clearly worthy of being signed to a label. I know music doesn't make money and that producers aren't arsed sometimes but seeing 220 downloads on a track that 200 would never pay for devalues their work IMO. I'd be happier knowing that 22 thought it was good enough to play for smile

That is so true.It's even worse now though with digital because loads of producers are giving away tracks that are under par and certainly would not of been signed for release on vinyl in years past.So that also has a effect on the scene because there are loads of under produced tracks out there

Does this mean you wont be producing anymore graham woodtop? laughing

nah it just means that I wont be giving them away for free laughing

5 months ago

Matt Capitani
mattcapitani Pic

4732 Posts

Midlands

Ska mania

In reply to

In reply to
Also I don't think it helps when producers give out free tracks for public download, especially big producers or tracks that are clearly worthy of being signed to a label. I know music doesn't make money and that producers aren't arsed sometimes but seeing 220 downloads on a track that 200 would never pay for devalues their work IMO. I'd be happier knowing that 22 thought it was good enough to play for smile

That is so true.It's even worse now though with digital because loads of producers are giving away tracks that are under par and certainly would not of been signed for release on vinyl in years past.So that also has a effect on the scene because there are loads of under produced tracks out there

Does this mean you wont be producing anymore graham woodtop? laughing

nah it just means that I wont be giving them away for free laughing

Excellent, cheers for the feedback on my tracks in the previous thread btw, where can I hear these little beauties? party

5 months ago

Cilla Battersby
daveclarke Pic

21836 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
It would've helped if the high street music stores and actually kept selling music for a start. I've always believed the key reason why legit MP3s failed to save the industry is because it was never expanded beyond the internet.

I cannot for the life of me think why the big chains like HMV never thought about introducing coin-op download terminals in their stores. It can't have been expensive to do surely - it would just be the music equivalent of those shitty "burn your own DVD" vendors you see in bus stations, you could have charged £2 per tune and had a full release onto a CDR with artwork printed on it to make it more collectable. I'm sure even Trackitdown could've done a similar thing through record shops.

That sounds like a wicked plan mate.I wonder why they never thought to do it

I thought of that about 5 years ago when commercial singles started getting download only releases, by then HMV already had an MP3 store so I really thought that it would be something record shops would do when most of their sales base weren't able to buy stuff anymore. Someone must surely have thought of it so I guess they just didn't want the expense and extra work. It can't have been that expensive to do though?

cdj shop did it for a bit, then closed down

5 months ago

Graham House
graham19 Pic

3287 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
Also I don't think it helps when producers give out free tracks for public download, especially big producers or tracks that are clearly worthy of being signed to a label. I know music doesn't make money and that producers aren't arsed sometimes but seeing 220 downloads on a track that 200 would never pay for devalues their work IMO. I'd be happier knowing that 22 thought it was good enough to play for smile

That is so true.It's even worse now though with digital because loads of producers are giving away tracks that are under par and certainly would not of been signed for release on vinyl in years past.So that also has a effect on the scene because there are loads of under produced tracks out there

Does this mean you wont be producing anymore graham woodtop? laughing

nah it just means that I wont be giving them away for free laughing

Excellent, cheers for the feedback on my tracks in the previous thread btw, where can I hear these little beauties? party

christ matt just give it a break will you.As soon as someone tries to have a laugh with you or make a tongue in cheek comment you start hounding them.
IT WAS A JOKE GET OVER IT YOU DIVA
Its like sharing a message board with a 12yr.old girl

5 months ago

Stuff That's Nathan Lether

Random But Raw / Brunitz
randombutraw Pic

5758 Posts

Lether

There does seem to be too big a focus on sound quality these days, which there is. The basics need to be done correct and that's it. However does sound quality outweigh the ideas or vice versa? No imo.

A scrappy (ish) track full of catch and emotion always is better than a track very well produced that has a flat emotion.

This is only half the point though.

The other side of it is that digital d/l's come out at such a fast pace that no tune can ever be an anthem or a big big hit anymore. People seem want upfront material quickly so the previous good track will be discarded very soon for the upfront new track that has just come out which is also a very good track.

So it does come to the point that the majority of listeners are in fact producers and/ or dj or even engineers.

In terms of mixes, this can make or break a track, more times than not it can ruin sales and demand I feel (depending on when released if it's not out yet, too long of release but open to hearing, then it does ruin a track)

If it went to how much vinyl was produced even at it's highest amount then I'd say tracks would do a lot better in sales and would be digested better by anyone who hears it.

Post edited by owner 12/28/2011 12:24:58 AM

5 months ago

6665 Posts

In reply to
There does seem to be too big a focus on sound quality these days, which there is. The basics need to be done correct and that's it. However does sound quality outweigh the ideas or vice versa? No imo.

A scrappy (ish) track full of catch and emotion always is better than a track very well produced that has a flat emotion.

This is only half the point though.

The other side of it is that digital d/l's come out at such a fast pace that no tune can ever be an anthem or a big big hit anymore. People seem want upfront material quickly so the previous good track will be discarded very soon for the upfront new track that has just come out which is also a very good track.

So it does come to the point that the majority of listeners are in fact producers and/ or dj or even engineers.

^^^^^^That!

A lot of people are so critical of tunes that they cant enjoy them because they are overly obsessing on sound quality, some of the best HH tunes ever made are classics from years that by todays standards are under-produced, but they are the tunes that still do the damage on the dance floor and are still getting played 10/15 years on!!

5 months ago

6665 Posts

In reply to

In reply to
There does seem to be too big a focus on sound quality these days, which there is. The basics need to be done correct and that's it. However does sound quality outweigh the ideas or vice versa? No imo.

A scrappy (ish) track full of catch and emotion always is better than a track very well produced that has a flat emotion.

This is only half the point though.

The other side of it is that digital d/l's come out at such a fast pace that no tune can ever be an anthem or a big big hit anymore. People seem want upfront material quickly so the previous good track will be discarded very soon for the upfront new track that has just come out which is also a very good track.

So it does come to the point that the majority of listeners are in fact producers and/ or dj or even engineers.

^^^^^^That!

A lot of people are so critical of tunes that they cant enjoy them because they are overly obsessing on sound quality, some of the best HH tunes ever made are classics from years ago that by todays standards are under-produced, but they are the tunes that still do the damage on the dance floor and are still getting played 10/15 years on!!

5 months ago

In reply to

The other side of it is that digital d/l's come out at such a fast pace that no tune can ever be an anthem or a big big hit anymore. People seem want upfront material quickly so the previous good track will be discarded very soon for the upfront new track that has just come out which is also a very good track.

I agree to an extent but I would say that's more down to the music than the format. Music has definitely become throwaway now but its still possible to have a massive hit, just look at the pop charts - Rihanna manages to stay at #1 for 2 months while most #1 hits are lucky to be in the Top 40 for that long, simply because she releases better pop music than anyone else. Even Avicii - Levels got to #3 in the pop charts even though every DJ on the planet had it for months, cos it was just a good tune in general.

Hard dance in general spends too much time concentrating on genre and appealing to a specific group than it does at just being good music on the whole. Most proper HH stuff out now doesn't have anything there that appeals to non-HH fans. Saying that, there are some tunes from the last year that I reckon could be considered classics in the future because they actually stand out and have that anthem quality to them that gives them wider appeal - Ben Stevens and Robbie Muir's stuff springs to mind.

5 months ago